Peer pressure
When I mentioned this decision to my husband, his response was, "Are you sure you want to become Orthodox? There are so many things you're not willing to do."
True. Been there, blogged that--see my Limits to how observant we're willing to become.
But my husband wasn't content to stop there--he remarked further that he'd observed a noticeable increase in my observance starting around 2005.
Funny thing about that. I started blogging in August 2004, and was finally hired full-time (after several years of temping) in the fall of 2005 by the Orthodox-sponsored organization for which I work.
I'm surrounded by Orthodox people at the office and online.
One of the things I'm really going to have to figure out is just how much of this change in my observance would have happened anyway and how much I can "blame" on you. :)
In all seriousness, I can't become an Orthodox Jew just to please other people. It's absolutely essential for me to determine whether this is what I really want, before making such a major decision.
28 Comments:
Lots of people are lenient about showering restriction during the 3 weeks, during shiva, and on the minor fast days. Again, the problematic thing would not be showering, but going around an making an issue over the fact that you shower. Even that would be ok if put in acceptable terms - e.g., I hold like Rabban Gamliel, who allowed himself to shower because he was an istenis (of a delicate nature). These days I think everyone who showers daily counts like that.
If you spoke the way you posted
Forget it--I'm not going to stink up the subway and the office by not taking a shower on a workday.
there would be those who would take offense. But others wouldn't. The internet to the contrary most of the O world is not filled with hashkafa and halacha police eagerly awaiting the opportunity to out people.
Incidentally, before you take anyone's word what the halacha is on any topic it never hurts to do some searching. Typing in istenis shower fast day I came across permission to do so from the Chabad site AskMoses.com.
You might also be interested in what Rav Ovadia Yosef says about showering during the nine days.
And lastly, even if you accept Mrs. Greenberg's halacha, why not shower the night before instead of in the morning. Or if you must, the fast starts at 6:02AM - so shower at 5:30AM instead.
As a general rule it is good to view problematic situations as an opportunity to learn about alternatives rather than an opportunity to be offended.
Shira, my understanding is that the halacha is that you don't shower on major fast days. In my community, it's not the practice to refrain from showering on minor fast days. Email me for citations.
"As a general rule it is good to view problematic situations as an opportunity to learn about alternatives rather than an opportunity to be offended."
That's the MOST important part of this. Just because someone writes something doesn't mean it's true.
The Orthodox "correct" way is to develop a close personal relationship with a Rav that can guide you through these issues with understanding of your minhagim.
The less Yeshivishly correct, but relatively common Modern Orthodox approach, is to research the issue yourself, learn the issue, find the rules, and choose accordingly.
(Tongue in Cheek): The Yeshivish correct way is to learn the issue like the MO, but using classical sources instead of modern tools, then go ask your Rav anyway. :)
At no point is the correct approach to be upset and throw a tantrum.
Miami Al: When you say "modern tools" (as opposed to classical sources), do you mean using the Bar Ilan CD or Steinsaltz Talmud or an academic edition of the Rambam (as opposed to the unpunctuated Vilna shas)? Or do you mean modern poskim (Iggrot Moshe?)? The most modern thing I ever learnt in Drisha was Iggrot Moshe ;) --but sometimes teachers assign Amos Chacham's peirush on Tanach...
I've wondered how much the internet effects observance because everybody knows what everybody else is doing...or not doing.
Shira,
I'm suprised at hearing that strict an opinion from Blu Greenburg.
I am Orthodox and my whole life I've only ever heard that it is preferable not to bathe on the minor fast days; I've not heard that it was halachically mandated that one could not.
rivkayael,
To be honest, for stuff like this, I'd start with Google and see where that takes me. For more serious matters, one would think that it would include a combination of digitized classical sources and modern sources, and using some searches to find it. One might also shoot an email off to a Rav on their Blackberry, so some information is available as needed.
I meant that more than more contemporary sources or not... obviously the more contemporary, the easier to use as the modern applications are more worked out, but the more removed from the pure Halacha it is.
The more modern approach will also jive with what Larry suggested, presenting a problem to solve, instead of a burden to moan about.
I'm orthodox. I shower on the minor days. Everyone I know showers on the minor days, including shiva assar b'tammuz. The only days we don't is Tisha b'av and Yom Kippur.
Orthodoxy is not lived out of a book. And in the right communities, nobody checks on each other by sniffing.
"If you spoke the way you posted
Forget it--I'm not going to stink up the subway and the office by not taking a shower on a workday.
there would be those who would take offense."
I learned from this that I shouldn't "talk to myself" when posting because I tend to be less careful in my word choice when "thinking out loud" than when thinking in terms of writing. Thanks for the needed lesson, Larry.
I apologize for any offense that I might have cause by my poor choice of words.
"At no point is the correct approach to be upset and throw a tantrum."
Honestly, it hadn't quite registered with me that I was throwing a tantrum on my blog, but you may have a point, Miami Al.
Much craziness at the office today--I'll check links and comment further when able.
Another source that says it is normal to bathe on the minor fast days.
Nice links, Larry. I noticed the balance between Ashenazi and Sefardi. :) Also, that Park Ave. link mentioned Shabbat, which I forgot all about--I *should* shampoo my hair this Friday because I won't have another chance before Shabbat.
I'll response to everyone bit by bit, as I expect constant interruptions.
RivkaYael, when I have 2 mins. to spare at home, I'll e-mail you for those citations. I should warn you, though, that we have next to nothing at home by way of halachah texts--all we have is a Kitzur Shulchan Aruch. I should follow Miami Al's and Larry's examples, and do more online searches for this sort of information.
""As a general rule it is good to view problematic situations as an opportunity to learn about alternatives rather than an opportunity to be offended."
That's the MOST important part of this. Just because someone writes something doesn't mean it's true.
Indeed, Larry has an excellent point, and it might be better if I didn't take just one person's word.
"The Orthodox "correct" way is to develop a close personal relationship with a Rav that can guide you through these issues with understanding of your minhagim."
Nu, Miami Al, if our shul had a rabbi, I'd at least have someone to ask, even if I ended up disagreeing with the answer. :)
Anon & JDub, it does seem to be the consensus among the commenters to this post that many Orthodox people do shower on half-fasts. That's certainly good to know.
"I've wondered how much the internet effects observance because everybody knows what everybody else is doing...or not doing."
Thanks for that comment, Dena--I was beginning to wonder whether *anyone* had noticed the main point of this post! In my case, it could be argued that the peer pressure is self-imposed, since almost no one reading this blog knows my real name and/or has ever met me. Nevertheless, it's something of a challenge for me to determine how observant I'd be if I stopped blogging and reading blogs tomorrow. To BT or not to BT, that is the question.
"Honestly, it hadn't quite registered with me that I was throwing a tantrum on my blog, but you may have a point, Miami Al."
Well, not literally a tantrum, (I have one of those going on in the other room right now...) :)
But post was a little bit of the blog equivalent of stomping your foot... :)
That said, you should absolutely bath for Shabbos, whether you do that Friday morning, Friday afternoon, or both is another story. Bathing Thursday night in preparation of a fast day and NOT bathing for Shabbos might actually be a problem... :)
BTW: a lot of the classic sources read in an odd manner, for example, a hot pot coming off a blech. The translation is something on the order of:
Normally, you can't put it back on.
However, if you don't put it down, you can put it back on.
However, if you put it in an unusual place, where you wouldn't leave the pot, like the counter top, and had returning it in mind when you put it down, you can return it.
So the "normal" condition is actually the exception.
So normally one shouldn't bath on the minor fast days, but if one normally showers and would be uncomfortable not showering, one should shower.
So normal doesn't mean what you think it means, because in 21st Century America, normal people bath daily, not weekly.
I agree that Shabbat takes priority over a minor fast, and I'll shower *and* shampoo this Friday morning, as always.
" . . . the "normal" condition is actually the exception."
Is that a frequent occurrence in halachah/Jewish religious law?
Shira,
Yes, it is. Because the "normal" behavior described is normal behavior in Roman Judea or Babylon's Jewish community 1600 years ago, cultural norms have changed. Even more "contemporary" sources that people learn in are referring to the cultural norms of 19th Century Eastern Europe.
That's why the comments you are getting are to the effect of "Orthodoxy can't be learned from a book/blog."
Basically, most of this learned behavior is cultural transmission... people don't really know why they reheat on a blech, they do it because their mother did it, or they learned it when becoming observant. Now, if one engages in Halacha learning, you'll learn the reasoning and the leniencies, many of which are more lenient than "normal" practice... the reason being, the normal rules that are stricter may refer to non-existant foods, and the exceptions might apply to everything you eat, since the food we eat as snacks would be a delicacy 250 years ago...
So Orthodoxy is NOT learned out of a book, Orthodoxy is learned by doing. The details can be learned from a book, but the frame of reference needs to be an observant life.
Look, I made a few cultural mistakes in my first year or two of being observant that I thought were humiliating, but most people never thought twice about them... and still eat in my home. :)
The people really into Orthodoxy theological issues are either in a Yeshiva somewhere, or blogging to get their fix... day to day Orthodox life is governed 99% by practice, 1% by belief.
I was going to mention the need to bathe before Shabbat but someone else has mentioned it already.
In other words, Miami Al, when we move, we're going to need mentors if we become baalei t'shuvah ("returnees" to Orthodox Judaism). Having a rabbi wouldn't hurt, either, whether we become BTs or not. :)
IlanaDavita, I listened to everyone who reminded me that Shabbat (Sabbath) takes priority over minor fasts, and showered and shampooed this morning.
Shira,
A mentor? You make this into a chore. Seriously, just make friends.
Go to houses, ask questions, listen when people correct you, you'll find in short order that this is pretty easy.
Watch how they make coffee, offer to help in the kitchen, it's all really easy and becomes second nature in no time.
Shira,
On the topic of the fast of 10th of Tevet, I'm curious:
Have you ever encountered a Conservative synagogue that had a fast day Torah reading for shacharit and mincha and had the fast-day additions to the shemona esrai?
I have never found one in my life.
The O shuls in my area all had mincha at around 4pm to accomodate the Torah and Haftorah readings. Those C shuls that even bother having mincha on Friday had a regular mincha at candle lighting time, altough most skip mincha and go straigth to kabbalat shabbat and maariv anywhere from 630 to as late as 730!
Miami Al, you may be right about me making a great deal out of these details. I'll keep in mind to keep my eyes peeled when I visit friends.
Anon., since I'm a "working stiff," I'm never in a location where I could get to a Conservative minyan for Minchah, so I have no knowledge of the workings thereof. As for Shacharit, I've witnessed fast-day Torah readings, but I honestly can't remember ever having heard fast-day additions in the Amidah at our local Conservative synagogue, and my "kaddish minyan" always did a heichah kedushah, even on Sundays.
". . . most skip mincha and go straigth to kabbalat shabbat and maariv anywhere from 630 to as late as 730!"
I'll go you one better--our local Conservative shul has been starting Kabbalat Shabbat at 8 PM for as many years as we've been members.
"I'll go you one better--our local Conservative shul has been starting Kabbalat Shabbat at 8 PM for as many years as we've been members."
Things like this were one of the items on the laundry list of reasons that I left the C movement.
It is a fine line, at what point are you merely being realistic about what to expect from your congregants and at what point does it become tantamount to saying that Shabbat isn't important and if you want to work until 6pm on Friday in the winter it is OK?
So in the Florida summers, Shabbat starts LATE. To accommodate young families, the Shul starts an "early minyan" at a "normal time" where 80% of the people go, and the "normal" minyan w/o Rabbi has a few dozen younger Yeshiva guys... The reason it is early/normal instead of normal/late is a provision under Halacha that if the community accepts Shabbat early, then Shabbat there starts early, so if the Minyan that 80% of the people went to was the "normal" one, Shabbat would start early for everyone.
I don't understand why you guys wouldn't do the reverse. Call for Mincha at 4 PM in the winter, then hold a late minyan at the "normal" time.
Realistically, your members aren't Shomer Shabbat, but it would be nice if the Shul were willing to say "the correct thing is to be Shomer Shabbat, for everyone else, there is the late Minyan."
Obviously, Shira's non-Minyan can't be subdivided. :)
"Miami Al, you may be right about me making a great deal out of these details. I'll keep in mind to keep my eyes peeled when I visit friends."
Seriously, if you move into an Orthodox inclusive neighborhood, and go to the Orthodox Shul and meet people, it will really all work out.
Nobody over the ago of 25 cares that much about theology, real life intervenes. A "I was observant Conservative, but moved here because I wanted to be with other observant Jews" should be a completely acceptable answer to anyone that you actually want to be friends with.
Anyone that has a problem with that, you don't want to be friends with them.
We learned everything quickly, we were probably less observant than you are now when we first moved to the Orthodox community, it's pretty east to pick up culturally.
And Larry, jdub, and myself are happy to cheer you on with whatever you are embarrassed about asking locally. :)
Anon --
My C congregation has a fast day Torah reading for shacharit and mincha and the fast-day additions to the shemona esrai. And I know that it is not the only C shul in NJ to do so.
I realize that C judaism is different outside the Northeast metroplex.
"It is a fine line, at what point are you merely being realistic about what to expect from your congregants and at what point does it become tantamount to saying that Shabbat isn't important and if you want to work until 6pm on Friday in the winter it is OK?"
Good question, Anon. Even though the service is at 8 PM service, there's one guy who almost invariably arrives late, frequently missing the entire service and showing up for our so-called Oneg Shabbat of tea and cookies. Of course, there are rumors that he actually davvens at a different shul first . . .
"Call for Mincha at 4 PM in the winter, then hold a late minyan at the "normal" time."
Miami Al, even the cantor barely gets home from his full-time job in time for candle-lighting. I don't think he'd appreciate an early service any more than most of our members would.
""I was observant Conservative, but moved here because I wanted to be with other observant Jews" should be a completely acceptable answer to anyone that you actually want to be friends with.
Anyone that has a problem with that, you don't want to be friends with them."
That's a good, workable approach.
"My C congregation has a fast day Torah reading for shacharit and mincha and the fast-day additions to the shemona esrai. And I know that it is not the only C shul in NJ to do so."
TOTJ Steve, Highland Park, NJ would be a wonderful place to live, were it not for the commute to work and my concern about living within hailing range of my not-so-healthy sister. Oh, well.
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